Let's Talk: What is Luxury? - Part 1

Welcome to "It's About Time"!

Today we will do something different: I want to have a chat on the ideologies of luxury and the many faces it may have. 

The english language defines luxury as:

luxury /lŭg′zhə-rē, lŭk′shə-/

noun

1. Sumptuous or extremely comfortable living or surroundings.
   "lives in luxury."
2. Something that is desirable but expensive or hard to obtain or do.
   "did not have the luxury of working in an up-to-date laboratory."
3. A free indulgence in costly food, dress, furniture, or anything expensive which gratifies the appetites or tastes.
4. Anything which pleases the senses, is not necessary for life, and is also costly, or difficult to obtain; an expensive rarity; Contrasted to necessity.
   "silks, jewels, and rare fruits are luxuries; in some countries ice is a great luxury."

"From the Merriam Webster Dictionary"

I like the definition, I find it quite extensive... yet I feel it lacks more depth. As we explored this topic while recording this episode, I have come to the realization that Luxury, a concept commonly understood, tends to be quite boundless into what it can include into each single individual's understanding.

To emphasize on this, I decided to query Gemini AI and asked it what luxury was and the answer was quite interesting:

Luxury is defined as a condition of abundance or great ease and comfort. It often involves indulgence in items or experiences that provide pleasure or satisfaction, though they are not essential for survival.

Historical Context

• Origins: The term "luxury" comes from the Latin word luxuria, meaning excess or extravagance. Historically, luxury was associated with the wealthy and powerful, characterized by tangible goods like precious metals, gemstones, and fine fabrics.
• Traditional Luxury: Before the Industrial Revolution, luxury was primarily a status symbol, linked to handcrafted and rare items that distinguished the elite from the general populace.

Evolution of Luxury

• Industrial Revolution Impact: The advent of mass production made luxury goods more accessible, prompting brands to adapt their strategies to attract a broader audience while maintaining an air of exclusivity.
• Modern Interpretations: Today, luxury encompasses not just material possessions but also experiences. There is a growing emphasis on experiential luxury, where unique and memorable experiences are valued over physical items.

Current Trends

• Sustainability and Ethics: Modern luxury increasingly focuses on sustainability, ethical sourcing, and personalization. Consumers are looking for brands that reflect their values and offer unique, high-quality products.
• Experiential Luxury: This includes personalized services, bespoke travel, and wellness experiences, highlighting a shift in consumer priorities towards memorable moments rather than mere ownership of goods.

Luxury continues to evolve, reflecting changes in societal values and consumer preferences.

Again, an interesting answer... but it lacks more depth. it did touch on some interesting concepts such as sustainability and ethics, but as mentioned previously it seems too general.

Not being satisfy by this, I wanted to have a deeper conversation on the topic with two people whom I believe work with luxury as part of their entrepreneurial carriers. 

Dr. Omar Fabbro, an expert in cosmetic dentistry, runs his own practices on Jumeriah Road, one of the most VIP areas in the Dubai, UAE. His perception of esthetics as well as his knowledge of the medical field, makes him a unique speaker with some incredible insights on the topic.

Ksenia Dolgova, a talented Jewelry and fashion designer, runs her practices all over the globe, working for a niche set of customers, creating bespoke pieces of both jewelry and accessories. She has travel the world and attends some of the most exclusive conventions for both Jewelry and Design, this has allowed her to nurture a deep understanding of what luxury means.

Thanks to them, we will try to understand and go deep into what the meaning of Luxury is in todays world as well as what does it mean and represent for each of us.

So sit back and relax because "It's About Time" to get started!

If you want to know more about Dr. Omar Fabbro and Ksenia Dolgova you can follow them on:

@doctorfabbro

@axiniafashion

Follow the podcast on Instagram: 

@itsabouttimeiat

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Creating something that's more delicate, something more suitable for a gallerina, something that doesn't uh doesn't shout, it is not loud. Beauty is not about being loud.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

No matter. It's about feeling how you feel. You can feel luxury being in an awful place, but if you have um peace inside, and to have peace inside, I think it's uh luxury.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

When you purchase something that you perceive as a as it is, as a luxury, you must use it. You must even abuse it.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

My father wrote a little something in the back. That's the only thing that has importance to me in that watch. Is luxury what you perceive or what people around you perceive, and therefore make you feel luxurious. Today I'm joined by Dr. Omar Fabro. Thank you for having me. And my wife, Xenia Dalgova.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Um today we're gonna try something new. Um, all the three of us have been involved in the business of luxury, uh, from one side to the other. And we would like to have a discussion about what each of us thinks or feels or believe luxury is. And so let's let's get started. Um, Doctore, so you have been um working in Dubai, in Jumeira, particularly, in the uh dentistry, um, and you have been focusing on aesthetic dentistry, so beauty. Yeah, therefore, for me, beauty, luxury, it all comes together. So, I would like to know a little bit more about your ideologies on on why your uh take on aesthetics is so important.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

This is actually a very interesting question because luxury and beauty, uh especially beauty, the perception is beauty, is very subjective. And it's subject also a trend. There are some periods in which people prefer certainty in a certain way with certain color, and also might depend through the nationality of the final user. So if it's Latin American compared to European, compared to Americans or Brits, okay, even Asian, they have different tastes in that. So, for example, in Japan or in China, is a especially in Japan, it's considered beautiful to have not straight teeth compared maybe to the US, when they want perfect teeth, no cusps, no design very flat. So it is very subjective, and I believe it's connected with culture. Uh for sure, when we are talking about luxury, we need to uh clarify what we are talking about exactly. We're talking about a service, a product, or we're talking about lifestyle. Because many people they are looking for a cosmetic type of approach for themselves, they're looking for a better version of their self. Or to see it, to feel they perceive their self in a different way. This is why they decide to go through something uh so radical, like changing the teeth shape, like also can be lips, uh, you know, botox, whatever it will be, the the therapy that you are thinking about to do. So it is mainly connected from my point of view on the perception of who you would like to become.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

But you take that perception of somebody comes talk to you and say, you know, I would like my teeth this way, this way, this way. And I believe understanding what the customer would like, you interpret that and give an advice based on your own experience and your own understanding of what should be the beautiful smile for this individual.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Absolutely. But you need to consider also that the uh potential client that comes to my clinic already seen some work of mine. So they don't come like you know, just knocking on the door randomly. They see what you have done before and they like the specific style. They know that I tend to do more natural looks alike style, more natural shape compared to uh consider what some colleagues of mine they are doing. They're more trendy type of uh shapes, for example. There's a very famous for, for example, local uh women, especially to have very long central incisors. For me, they don't make any sense. I don't like them. It seems like um, you know, it doesn't give proportion, doesn't suit the entire person. It's like purchasing a suit that doesn't fit you. So the teeth need to fit the person and uh also need to fit the entire person as a personality point of view. So not only uh how does it look like the face shape, the bone structure, the teeth size, but also they need to fit everything. They need to look natural in the environment in which you are planning to place them. So when they when a patient comes to me, already have seen those results for other people, it already know what they kind of want to. They don't come, might happen, of course, but they don't come only looking for uh I want, I don't know, the Kardashian teeth. Okay, for this, they're going to other clinic for that. When they're coming to me, they look for more natural. So they want a more let's say refined version of their self, then instead changing dramatically who they are to be maybe part of something else. They want just to be better.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Oh, that's sounds nice. Okay. Um you started a recent project um when you are um taking beauty and enhancing it through jewelry. Yeah. And always still talking in the uh dentistry field. So, what have you been up to with this, Doctore?

SPEAKER_05 5:47

You know very well about that because it's uh thanks to you, thanks to Senia, of course, the I start my journey in that direction. Uh after our trip together to uh Hong Kong, I discovered in a more depth the world of jewelry, and I decide to why not to apply this to dental beauty. You know, why do we need to have jewel that are only connected only uh on rings, necklace, you know, for the external part of the body, they cannot be other parts of the body. Why should we consider this only for certain type of uh uh, let's say underground culture, where we are talking about grills, you know? What you the first thing that you think is about underground culture, American culture.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:28

You don't think about uh elegance, you don't think about that. My idea is to try to shift the perception from that underground culture to a normal perception of luxury, of beauty, creating something that's more delicate, something more suitable for a galadiner, something that doesn't uh doesn't shout, it is not loud. Because beauty is not about being loud. Then you know they used to uh specify this many times that you understand the new rich compared to with uh old rich and uh elegant, right? Based on the way in which they're wearing things. When you're having a bag that's uh fully loaded with logos, that is shouting, that you achieve a certain type of result. So the idea is to detach that. We don't want the grills with a pavé, we don't want that. We want to do something more delicate, something more minimal. So my micro modification, then maybe they go even enhancing the shape of your teeth, so connecting that to a better perception of your smile, also. So that is the idea behind.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Have you ever thought of using grills?

SPEAKER_05 7:31

The grill sounds very again, grills are associated with ghetto culture. I understand underground culture.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

No, I cannot. It's not my thing at all. Even like little diamonds on my teeth, I'm never considered, and um um it's not it's not my thing. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Yeah, there was a period, it's still uh present, no? The the fact that people put little diamonds on their teeth. Yeah, there is a request for that, yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_05 8:01

Oh wow, it's uh you know, again, it's perception, it's my version. Yes, in the right way, everything might make sense. You just need to find the right way to apply that, and then again, it's like you might like one bread on another, is a personal choice. Xenia, now we go back to you.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Um the ideology of beauty, uh how do you apply beauty into your jewelry or everything that you do for that matter? And why and would you consider that to be a luxury?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

No, jewelry should be beautiful for me. Okay, otherwise um I don't see the point uh to do. I don't wanna do ugly things, I don't wanna do provocative things. I know in our world there is everything uh has um place and everything is existing, but I'm not on that part. Uh for me, not only jewelry, everything should be beautiful, or I prefer to have it beautiful. It can be environment, uh, clothes, food, uh, relationship, these things. And um luxury for me, I think it's a very personal thing. Because um, for some people, luxury is to have um a, as you said, a bag screaming that uh I made it. And uh for somebody to have uh ice cream after not having it, I don't know, for a year, it is a luxury. I don't know what was the condition that they couldn't have it before, but no matter. It's about feeling how you feel. You can feel luxury being an awful place, but if you have um peace inside, and to have peace inside, I think it's a luxury. Not many people, I think, um have this privilege.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

So would you think that by creating the things that you create or both of you? I I really like what you said. It is beautiful, actually. Yeah, yeah, you you want to uh bring this ideology in the object that you're creating, yeah. Whether it is uh the feeling of peace or that little piece of of uh you know the gelato feeling that you couldn't have and now you're able to have.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Is that what you're giving people when you're creating your jewelry or I hope that uh I'm giving it, but this is how I'm creating. I'm I I can sit and work on a piece until I'm satisfied that yes, this is the one what I like myself, because I don't like to create things what I don't like. It's for me it's impossible. I will make it, break it 100 times until I satisfy that I like it and I will wear it. And uh I this is how I do. I actually all of my jewelry and uh other pieces, bags, I don't know, accessories. I'm testing on myself because also I need to see practicality, how practical it is, and all that. And uh, once I feel that yes, it's um all good, it's beautiful, it's practical, then I start to offer it to others.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

You know, I would like to add something, you know, to come back to what you said at the beginning. Uh, the fact that why should I need to choose something that is not beautiful? I think that is the concept of luxury in reality because uh you're not choosing something for the purpose of the utilization, like for example, a car. You're not choosing a car just because it moves you from a point A to a point B. You want a car that it moves you between these two points, but it also adds something else. There's that sensation of feeling, make you feel positive, make you feel happy to drive that thing. So when you can choose the luxury is you can afford to choose, not talking only economically, you can afford to choose something that has a pleasant shape for you, give you a pleasant feeling. The ice cream, you know, that you are referring to that is beautiful. Because you are talking about scarcity, what is where to get access to also. Because I cannot have access to ice cream, or maybe you're forgetting to have uh about ice cream. It's not that it is not there, but then the specific day is very hot, you're enjoying the ice cream so much, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, actually, this story comes from very near from a very interesting moment. We were driving looking for the house in Rosal Jaima, and it was so hot, and we were so tired. We've seen, I don't know, several houses, and we we were kind of getting exhausted with all that, and then I thought, like, it would be so cool to have ice cream now for this. And in the middle of the desert, we see a minivan just standing all alone, and uh, we're coming closer and closer. I said, like, no, it cannot be.

SPEAKER_04 13:05

Yeah, the guy was selling ice cream, fantastic, and we had ice cream, it was great, it was also delicious, man. I remember because you told me the story, so it was so much impactful. You're still remembering that it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

I I want to touch back on the on the idea of uh scarcity, yeah. Um, so I I I also I firmly believe in that. I for I I believe that um luxury is something that is out there, that is available, but not for everybody. And at the same time, the the the feeling it's different from people to people. And for example, um one of the other things Omar does, uh which we haven't touched about yet, is he likes to make watches. And I hope one day he'll be able to start his own line of watches properly because I will buy one. And the reason I'm talking about this is because when we were in Italy in Roma, it happened to be my birthday while we were studying jewelry, and uh you came to visit us, and when you came a mission, yes, together with your wife and together with your son, and you brought me the first Fabro Unico watch, which I'm wearing today, and uh it's one of my favorite watches, if not the favorite watch, because it carries so much meaning to me, and I'm the only one that has it, and it's so much so that every time I bring it out and Omar sees me with it, you want to take it from me. Even now.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

I was looking at while we were waiting to shoot that. I like it, I really like it.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

So it's it's uh this this feeling this watch carries with me, it's it's very important. It's something that nobody has, it's something that nobody will have, and it's something I can pass on through the storytelling to whoever I will give this watch to, my son, for example, or my daughter. Now, together with that, when I was 18, uh my father has this tradition and he would give a watch. And he gave me a Rolex. I didn't know anything about Rolexes, I didn't know what they were, I didn't understand the meaning or value of it, I didn't understand anything up until I met you actually. So imagine, and we met what seven years ago, eight years ago. Yeah. Um but the important thing on that watch was that my father wrote a little something in the back. That's the only thing that has importance to me in that watch. Even though it might be worth I don't know how much money in the market, but and and that again it's something I feel it's important to me, and I don't know if necessarily that importance can transfer to luxury because here's the other thing is luxury what you perceive or what the people around you perceive, and therefore make you feel luxurious. So is it the people around you that see you wearing uh the beautiful jewelry that you have today or the watch that you're carrying today, or or the custom-made suit, are they the ones that uh value your luxury or is it you?

SPEAKER_05 16:27

Very nice, Chris. Yeah, it's it's uh it's interesting. Okay, I would like to say something about this. Um you know, when you are starting, let's say hanging out around the watch collector, etc. Uh, you start seeing two very specific patterns of user. Okay, let's call it like this that who is collecting pieces that everybody wants, okay, to show the others that they have those pieces. But we are talking about serial production pieces, we are not talking about special pieces. And then you have people like you that have the Rolex. Yes, there's a serial production type of product, but it has an incision behind. And you tell the story about the thing, so that has a special special meaning for you. So it's not a piece that has value economically necessarily, but has a story behind it, carry something with you. So uh this is very interesting because it defines again the two concepts of perception and luxury who want to have something loud to show that they achieve something so they want the specific, I don't know, Rolex GMT or whatever it is that the people want, or who choose something that people don't recognize, like the Telera made suit, make you feel good, make you feel special. You know, when you wear that, you feel like I'm looking good. You feel it with a different energy. When you wear your special watch, you feel a different energy, your special jewel. I like when I wear your ring that you give that to me. I wear it every day. And you know what is interesting, I like the fact, and I think also this is the luxury. When you purchase something that you perceive as a as it is, as a luxury, you must use it. You must even abuse it from the point of view. Because it is part of owning the thing that makes it beautiful. If you buy something that you perceive as a luxury, like uh that everybody perceives as a luxury or a status symbol, and you don't use it because you don't want to consume it, you don't want to ruin it. It doesn't make any sense. Means that you are not actually enjoying the pieces, you're not actually, you know, feeling that you deserve the piece also. So a watch, a jewel, anything, a tailor-made suit, a car, should be used with the purpose it's being studied for. And this is what they make it.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Can I put a point? What about collectors?

SPEAKER_05 18:37

There's a different point. This is very interesting because uh when you start having a lot of pieces, of course you don't wear them in the same way. So you don't consume them, but you're still using them. Okay, but if you collect with the purpose of selling them or to increase the value, that's a different story. So you're not actually a collector, you're a trader. With a story of uh being a collector, but your final uh aim is to sell it one day. Well, if you are buying it for yourself, you want to use it. You know, like this ring, if you see it's full of scratch, I use it pretty much every day. I polish it by with the paste that you gifted me because I want to see the shining between the scar. The scar is the story that the ring brings with me. The same with the watch. I want to use it. This one, I want to use it. So the luxury is also connected to the fact that you feel the thing belonged to you, not that you can afford it. And of course, having a special piece that no one else has, that is also very interesting because again, it's scarcity. You cannot have it unless you but again, you need to be a scarcity that exists as a real scarcity, not like uh Rolex boutique that you go and they tell you, no, I'm sorry, sir, we cannot give you the watch, even though they produce 1.5 million uh watches every year. Is uh you know, is uh is engineered scarcity.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

But again, isn't scarcity a design or a mechanism that relies relies on external sources because a scarcity is there when there is high demand and low production. Yeah, but it is so so it's the scarcity exists because there is high demand.

SPEAKER_05 20:20

The scarcity exists because to find people that are capable to produce the thing at that level that the uh core value of the brand they want to build, they cannot find people. They build that specific thing. So you have a limited amount of people they can have access to, so as a specialist, to produce the specific thing. Uh, if you think about there are plenty of brands, for example, lecoulte, they produce the reverse watch, the one they flip side. Okay, the basic model is very affordable when we're talking about watch prices. But if you want to have the special model, say it's enameling with a painting made from Louvre painting, there's a different story. Why? Because when you go to the factory, they only have uh three or four people have been there. They're capable to do this miniature painting, right? They replicate the painting from Louvre. So it is scarcely to the fact that they don't have the capacity because it's so requires a certain level of skills to produce that. It's rare to find them in the market, so their capacity of production is very low. And there's a is a piece, there's a beautiful piece to have.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, I've seen I've seen the pictures. Uh Xenia, I want to go back to the um the ideology of collectors. I want you to expand on that. I want I want to understand more what you're talking about because I didn't I didn't understand very well. So I understand what collectors do when they collect pieces, and I understand there might be for personal for trading.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I was thinking about um personal because uh me myself, I'm not into trading very much. I prefer to collect stuff. And um I why I like to collect stuff because uh I like the pieces, I like to have them, uh like art, for example. And um yeah, you put them on the walls and I'm enjoying um does it make you feel happy? Yeah, that's beautiful. Exactly, and I don't want to trade them, no way, at least up to now, it never come to my mind. Um, but uh it's uh create uh atmosphere. I uh I enjoy it. So I'm talking about these collectors, yeah. Collectors who are trading, uh it's uh they're traders, exactly. Yeah, they're not collectors.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

This is very specific for certain type of things like art and jewels and watches.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

But with that in mind, we can talk about collecting anything for that matter. Of course, yeah. So from post stamps to gemstones.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yes, I've seen one collector of the gemstones, and uh first uh my first impression was very mixed feelings. I couldn't understand uh he's a guy, he brought uh several trays full of jewelry, and I see that it's uh mainly it's uh ladies' jewelry, and I was looking at him like how to connect all that. And um at one point of our discussion, she mentioned something is that sometimes I come to my room, I take these trays, some of them, I put it around me, and I'm looking at it. That's it, and um so this is his uh joy. Just he doesn't wear them, he doesn't wear any jewelry, in fact, maybe one ring and nothing else. But uh this is his uh joy. Like to enjoy the blink bling, the shine, and uh yeah, gemstones are fascinating, and uh he's doing it. I don't know how often, but this is what he said.

SPEAKER_05 24:06

But do you believe this is actually luxury or this is actually a hobby? I think that there is a there is a difference between the two. The hobby could be a postcard, it could be anything that is not necessarily scarce, any very present.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

It's quite expensive, hobby.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

And indeed, but depends who is doing that.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I mean, yeah, give like a couple of traits worth uh several million of dollars.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yeah, but this is exactly where I wanted to get to. So, does luxury have a price? Because this guy has a collection of gemstones and it's great. I've known people that have collections of classic cars, and still we're talking about millions of dollars in there in collections. Our friend Manji, he loves collecting motorcycles and he has classic vintage model motorcycles. Is it luxury because it's expensive? I don't believe so.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Does luxury have a price? Everything has a price, but uh does it need to be high? No, not at all. As I do as we started from the beginning, peace, does it have a price in your mind in your soul? And how much it costs then if it has a price.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

Maybe it doesn't have an economical price, it's a different type of price, but I believe luxury to be so must be connected with the with the handcrafting, cannot be machine made. If you talk about something can be produced by machine automatically, okay, without any intervention of men, is that luxury? So it has an appealing shape, maybe. Yeah, it has uh the value of the metals on the stones or whatever it is produced with, but is that luxury if it's a scalable production?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Uh for some people, yes.

SPEAKER_05 25:58

But it is real luxury, or it's just like we were saying before, uh achieving like a milestone to show everybody that you achieve the milestone. So you purchase the thing knowing there's a machine made, production made, but sim it as more as a symbolism than luxury.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

I as I understand, everybody has their own uh understanding of luxury.

unknown 26:20

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah. For me, of course, I prefer everything handmade, everything just for me, for nobody else, and uh so on. But uh as uh for some other people, uh hand back what they were dreaming, I don't know how long and they've gotten, yeah, it's luxury for them.

SPEAKER_05 26:38

The famous birkin, no?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, for example, and uh let it be why not? I think it's a very personal thing.

SPEAKER_05 26:48

But again, but it is luxury again, uh it is personal as a sensation they generate on you. But if we are talking about generically speaking as a luxury, is that a luxury? Or is just economical power? Because it's not only for I believe connected with money, it's connected to accessibility, connected to the capacity to uh to source those things, but they are not related necessarily to money. There's luxury because if you is just about money, who has more money can have it. So, what is the luxury? The luxury should be connected to the incapacity of the money itself, only by their self to have access to that.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

What's the name of this gentleman? Uh my love, the the great uh jeweler that you admire.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Jar.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Jar. Is the one in Plasmandome?

SPEAKER_05 27:42

I I guess. Sorry? Is the one in Plasmandome in France?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

I believe so.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

And he wakes up one day, he makes one piece, and he offers it.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

I don't really know his lifestyle, it's very um but this is the story you told me, so that's why I'm repeating it. Yeah, I assume so, because uh very little information about his uh he's a mysterious gentleman. Yeah, he is kind of mysterious, and uh, by this mystery, maybe it helps him to uh create around his name uh what is going on. But uh part of that he does masterpieces, correct, and when he does a piece, he offers it up for sale. Yes, he is uh take it or leave it, yeah. Uh for sale to certain people, correct. You need to have access to them, right? He's choosing. Uh you can have access to him, but he will say no to you or to because he is choosing who is gonna have this piece.

SPEAKER_05 28:40

So it's not about money. Money is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

No, there it's not about money, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:46

It is about you need to choose, you need to be selected.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:50

So that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Does he produce luxury? I believe so for sure. But what is the process then? He has been endowed by I don't know, mystical powers to make masterpieces of jewelry, and then he chooses the few selected individuals who may have access to this masterpiece that he created.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

So I I think he doesn't do it for the money. I think so. I think this it's it's uh it's power at this point. I think it's a game. It's a game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

For fun, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

Oh, for pleasure in joining the legit in that way. But I believe also that before arriving at that point, he demonstrated to the to the public that he was capable to deliver a certain level of work. So you cannot just start tomorrow and become like him. He demonstrated with this technique, and because I've seen his pieces actually, I did some research about him in the past. And I think I have also a book at home about him. And uh he demonstrated he was capable to produce something that was very unique for the time. And they create demands and then create the this process in which I says, okay, I cannot produce for everybody. I don't want to scale it up because it will lose quality, we'll lose type of touch. This is what we were saying before. You cannot control the process. So you want to control everything in between. So this is his capacity. I can produce maybe one piece, two pieces a year. So I choose who will wear it because they need to, you know, also have maybe an impact on his brand, a perception of the brand. So you cannot be the random Joe, let's say, but you need to have uh maybe even a random Joe can have it. We don't know. I don't know. If that is his uh vision for that piece, exactly. Maybe it's connected with the vision for the peace. That's very interesting. Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. So, what about you?

SPEAKER_03 30:45

What you were saying? No, I was I was uh I was going through all of this when you guys were talking because going back to the idea of of peace. We went back to Italy, as you know, a couple of weeks ago, and we had a really good time over there. And I came back with this feeling of longing. I want to have what my friends have over there. My friends are very normal people, they're people that go to the office, they go to work, they have their normal 9 to 6 job, whatever, 9 to 5, then go for their aperitivo, etc. But when we went to visit Fabio in uh Victorio Veneto, which is about 100 kilometers away from uh Switzerland, um it's it's in the valley of the Alps, and that's where the valley of Prosecco is. That's where you get prosecco. And Fabio would say, Yeah, you know, once a year I go to the um battling uh factory where they produce the prosecco, and I buy you know my 72 bottles of uh prosecco that I keep for the year, or 75, whatever. He buys 50 liters, or was it? I forgot. 50 liters, he puts it in a damijiana in a big container, and he takes it back home and battles his own prosecco. This idea, it's so beautiful, it's so romantic. And then obviously, he took us out for lunch and we had fantastic aperitivo overlooking the the vineyards where uh you know all the the grapes are being grown to make wine and prosecco, and we had prosecco man, the best prosecco in the world, which I don't like, but this time I couldn't resist. It was amazing. It's definitely different from the one that you find normally, you know. It's completely different, but the difference is so so real, and I would recommend anybody uh going to Italy to really.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

And the price is so little, also so real, also that one.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

So, so his world view on this specific thing for me is luxurious. It's a luxury to be able to do that because I live in a place where I cannot. But for any money, you can't go and sit in the valleys of I don't know what, Hatta and look at the vineyards where they produce prosco. Yeah, it makes sense. You know, when you but this is uh or or even to this the most simplest of things. When you were sitting on Instagram and you're sending me the videos of Italian food in the tractorias, and you have these amazing dishes cooked by these master chefs who are not really master chefs of anything, they're grandmas or grandmas, there even better. They have been doing this just all their life and they're really good at it. Love it, don't love it. They're just amazing. The ingredients are perfect. We cannot have that here. We we strive, and I have seen you and me go to restaurants in Dubai, pay crazy amounts of money to get close to that, and then we go back to Italy and we go to the autogrill on the highway, and we just have a panino and you're happy. Luxury. Yesterday you told me, what did you have for lunch yesterday?

SPEAKER_05 34:05

Well, I had to lunch, I forgot, man. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I discovered it through delivery. You can have access, of course, to spinnies, but now spinnies, not to do marketing for them, but they can deliver also pork-related items. Okay, so I said, Okay, this is beautiful. So I ordered one uh fresh baguette, some mortadella, and while I had that one hour off in between the patients, I sliced the bread, I put the mortella in it, and I had a sandwich with mortadella. Beautiful. Tell me that's not luxury. I was so happy, like a baby. Instead of eating it, always the same story, it's always the you know, whatever it is, shish the uko, whatever it is, the shawarma, whatever. You go back to your culture because uh, you know, I was willing to add something about your story. Yeah, the fact that it is make it beautiful is because it's done with intent. And it's done because it's connected with a culture of doing that, and it's culture while you're doing that, it's not just randomly made. If we're if if someone does that randomly, you go there, buy the proseca and drink it, doesn't feel the same things that you felt. Why? Because it's not connected to their culture. So your culture, your knowledge, your education uh allow you to enjoy the experience more. It's like for me, if I'm uh coming to you to buy a jewel, of course my knowledge of jewelry is not the same as yours. So your perception of what we are doing is very different than mine. Okay, but think about also someone really that doesn't have nothing to do with jewels that comes to you. Yeah, yeah, give me this, give me that, and that's it, maybe. Where is the culture? Where is the enjoy enjoyment of doing this? There is not because it's just a transaction. I need a jewel because my wife wants a jewel or whatever. While the culture is enjoy, have the competences to understand what you are doing, and this gives pleasure to both sides when we are having the discussion about the thing. So the transaction, there is a there was an Italian way to say this, but basically, you have education over the things that you want to buy, and this makes both the transaction and who is uh selling the service of the product, who is buying it, enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Uh to be honest, I never had uh this transaction.

SPEAKER_05 36:21

Just to say, and that doesn't mean it happened to you. Uh just to say imagines want to go to Cartier and buy just uh out of uh the brand. Doesn't know what he's buying, just buying because he it is the brand, and so on.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Okay, even if it is so, but uh there is uh something you create this will, the this uh want to buy. It's uh not just you go in a random oh cartier. What okay, let me buy something.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

No, uh maybe the wife, maybe the husband wants something from there. Who wanted no? Well, maybe who is buying doesn't know. Because not necessarily are the same person. You know, when you're doing a gift or something that you are not.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

No, okay. Let's cut let's, for example, there is buyers who are buying things for others.

SPEAKER_05 37:07

Yeah, exactly. Let's consider this. Let's say a husband has zero knowledge about jewelry and they want to buy a piece for the wife. You know, like my my first Sunday when I bought the first jewelry, I had zero knowledge, and ask you, I ask you, I ask other friends of ours, they they know more about that to guide me into the process because I had zero knowledge about that. And how do you make uh uh a correct choice? How do you choose something that has a certain intrinsic value but also a meaningful value? Because there are there are meanings about the color, the stones, so how do you choose and you put that stuff together? And uh unless you know what you're doing, you're just buying. So the the champagne, the the prosecoating, you're just buying if you don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

But but you cannot argue taste. You like what you like, you dislike what you don't like.

SPEAKER_05 37:53

I don't say the reason why make it luxury is that the education that you have they make you enjoy the thing more. If I want, for example, a motorcycle, yes, and I studied a specific motorcycle and I want that one, I want that one. You know, I when I will have it maybe one day, I will enjoy that thing more because I dream about that. How does it work, how does it not work, and no the system inside, the valves, uh, which type of petrol, whatever. It makes me enjoy more than simply okay, I want to buy a motorcycle, this looks good. You know, this is why we are making the same choice even when you go to a restaurant, you choose also based on the things that you know you you know already the flavor that you're expecting to have from the thing. But this is based on the fact of your experience that you already had, you already had the dish maybe before, maybe the lasagna, whatever it is, maybe the the uh uh scalloped. I understand what you mean, and they triggered a certain chain of effect. But if in this chain you there is a mistake, then everything falls, like for the experience of uh on a restaurant. You're expecting something good, you receive the dish, it doesn't taste as it's supposed to. You know that what I mean. Remember the last uh chain de rotiche? Oh, yeah, I remember we did together.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Oh, I remember, man.

SPEAKER_05 39:13

So it's not again, you have the knowledge to enjoy the thing and you want the best. And you expect certain things because you know how it's supposed to be, and this makes you enjoy the things more.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Do you really know everything you what you're expecting, how it's supposed to be?

SPEAKER_05 39:38

No, but I research if I want to. That's the point. If I, for example, I need to go to a holiday, I will research the place.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I will do video, I will watch a video on the on the before going to sleep about the place where you went on holidays just uh without research?

SPEAKER_05 39:54

Uh rarely.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Rarely, yes. I think you should try.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

I like to to know how to enjoy the most.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

You know my the most joyful trip in my life was to India, where I had no idea where to go, what I'm gonna do, how I'm gonna do. I didn't expect anything. I was like, okay, today's the day. What how it's going to be? I had no idea. And this was the life-changing experience in my life.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

But you went with a perception uh of uh with the idea to be amazed by the place. No ready to open. No zero. Zero. Zero actually.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

I've got an opportunity to go, and I was asking myself, like, okay, you go into another country you've never been, and uh what you're gonna do? So I reached the point, like, okay, I need a goal, at least at least one direction. What? So I created uh a goal. I was uh looking for the factory where I can produce jeans and so on. But this factory it was in Delhi, but before Delhi I visited um Pune and uh Calcutta, and uh there I had uh basically nothing to do about uh jeans production, so I was just experiencing whatever is offered, and uh it was uh it was different. I cannot say that everything was super pleasant, of course, but uh and uh and the end of the day it was fantastic. This was nice, it was totally it changed my life because it was the first time in my life, I was not expecting anything, I just let it go, and uh I was taking care of myself every time telling myself I'm safe, everything will be fine with me. With these words, I was uh entering exiting uh a hotel and going, God knows where. And and and actually I managed to reach into whatever places, and um so I think expectations sometimes um kill the not sometimes, especially if expectations what uh uh what was not reached, it kills the moment, what you have.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Uh I have I have had this happen to me plenty of times. I buy something with the expectation that it's going to be a certain way according to what I wire, uh, and then I'm like eh it it it it fumbled, it it's just not the way it is. You made me think about the watch that you bought together. Oh man, yes. But this this is my personal thing, you know. But it's it's like that, and uh and I I agree with both of you, by the way. Uh, because when you're talking about luxury and you talk about the experience and the knowledge and and and how you up you value and appreciate, and and this comes from knowledge and from learning what went behind making a certain piece or building the car. I believe that has to do a lot also with marketing and how the marketing of a company educates you. Uh Ferrari, for example.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Historical uh knowledge. I mean, I'm talking about cars because I like cars, and but but Ferrari, it's uh history of uh of uh racing, knowledge, the cavalino rampante. Um and you look at their advertisements and they're all uh around their engineering, what what materials are involved, the technology involved, the precision of every single cut and bolt and piston and uh whatnot. So it it's educating you like this is worth the money because of this. Same with Rolls-Royce cars for that matter, all the cars are telling you why you should spend the money to do it to on them. Jewelry is the same. The commercially available jewelry today, it's telling you why. The ideology of the uh um solitaire as an engagement ring. That was a fabricated uh ideology. Uh, I believe it was the beers, if I'm yeah, the beers did it, and they created this idea that whenever you propose to a woman, you present to them a solitaire, a sign, a symbol of uh uh devotion, uh purity, purity, as well as uh economical power. Yeah, you buy the how many carrots it is. What's the minimum character to be acceptable, more or less, back in the day? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_05 44:57

I knew at this one, I knew there was uh related to your economical power. It's supposed to be like three salary of your whatever yeah, there is a rule, there's like three salaries, so they're there's a whole rule behind the rule.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Okay, they they in any case they bring wash everything very well. Um but for me, that solitaire, beautiful is not luxury, it's just a testament to how much money you spent. Again, so it's a status symbol.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah, but again, it's your personal perspective.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

But I'm talking about me because my ideology of luxury is uh barbecueing on the weekend. For sure. I know it's beautiful, for sure. But it's it's it's a simple quality of time, it's quality of time, and so I go back to what Xenia said from the beginning that moment of peace, peace is luxury, and uh I don't know. I believe peace is luxury when you want to have peace.

SPEAKER_05 45:59

When you don't want to have peace, maybe you want to do something, maybe you want to have the freedom to choose, then exactly.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

So the freedom and the ability to have access to to have access to the peace when you want it, the chaos when you want it.

SPEAKER_05 46:13

Yeah, that that also is think about a busy road in China full of people, and then you're there in the middle, you're the only white guy walking there. That's super cool. That's super cool, but you choose to be there, and then you choose to go back to the hotel, maybe to sleep a little bit and rest a little bit. It is uh it is the capacity, the power to have access to, yeah. But if we are talking about items more than experience, because experience it is uh even more complex, I think. The topic, but if we talk about items, no expectations again.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Sorry, I wasn't finished. Um you went to India, you went to look for a factory for jeans. Why? I didn't know about this story by the way. Well, it's a very good story. Why? What were you planning to do with that?

SPEAKER_00 47:01

I wanted to make uh my own brand uh of uh jeans, and were those jeans going to be luxurious? Um yeah, yeah, it's supposed to be why because uh I wanted to put uh a lot of I didn't want to make uh uh ordinary jeans, uh like plenty of them. Okay, I wanted to do embroidery on it, uh some crystals, uh beads, and uh to make uh custom, yeah. Interesting designs, not custom, I know for every customer different, but a line of very specific.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Okay. Um so and and and here is a topic I want to touch specifically. That's why I asked you about the jeans. So you wanted to make a luxury product that is produced by very humble people.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Actually, at that moment I didn't think about luxury whatsoever. For me, it was first experience, and um I was just uh testing uh myself, uh testing grounds, tasting idea, maybe just simply to build something different, not correct, necessarily to be luxury.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yeah, the reason I'm saying this is because when I went to Roma together with Senia, and you were there as well, to study uh jewelry making, goldsmithing, and I met some of these masters, they're very humble people, they are artisans, yeah. And and and by that I mean they're not much different than a mechanic working with their tools. Uh they are people that are working with their hands that have acquired uh mastery in in what they do through years of practice and repetition, and uh but they're very humble individuals who create uh standing pieces. Where does how is it that luxury comes from this very humble uh roots? Oh, which routes it should come? I don't know, but you know, you walk into Mall of Dubai and you go to luxury areas, and my god, it's everything it's there, the lights, the shine, the boom, the the show boating, which is the the ability to show off, it's ridiculous. You you you feel you know, if you don't go in there uh with a purpose, they'll they'll snob you. Yeah. This is you feel like this. No, I never feel snobbed by anyone, don't worry. It's but I have seen it.

SPEAKER_05 49:49

It is they try to make you feel like that, yeah. That you don't belong there, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Um I think uh certain people feel like this. I used to feel like this before, and um I actually trained myself not to feel like this. I was purposely going to the uh branded shops. Obviously, I didn't have money to buy anything there, but just because you learn a lot of things, yeah. To see what they have, and uh the most important to get rid of this uh like something is wrong, and yeah, I cannot afford and how they look at me. I don't care how you look at me now, and uh it doesn't it's it's uh out of my system. I can enter any shop anytime, and uh just because I'm curious, even though I'm not gonna buy anything, what to see what uh what world is offering, and I don't see anything uh wrong about it. You're exposing, you're displaying, you're screaming, we are the best, we are the this and that. Okay, let me see.

SPEAKER_05 50:56

Beautiful I love that the switch, but also one thing it is interesting because then all this luxury is produced by people, like you said, very humble people. So the the workforce, the artistry behind it is made by people they are obsessed with these things to produce that. This is why they they improve, they become better also in any other type of field, like watchmaking, etc. The watchmakers are very humble people, yes, and they you don't, you know, they're not they're like workers in a factory, pretty much. Yes, and then you have one or two of them, they manage to start their own, or maybe to grow in the direction they are focused on producing something. The economical aspect is not necessarily belong to them, they like the virtuosism of the thing, the like of the shape, virtuousism, the technical virtuosism, the mechanical part. They like that. And to be like that, you must have some sort of humble in yourself, otherwise, how can you learn from the other people around you? Because you cannot know everything about everything.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Of course.

SPEAKER_05 51:56

And in fact, I was told when I when I came to you uh on the Giraldi in Rome. You see, you see them very, you know, you see guys with uh t-shirts, tattoos, they don't look like belonging to that. And this is very interesting. I was checking also some picture of I don't remember which watchmaking factory, and there was this gentleman full of tattoos, and it was doing very enameling, very detailed things. And it's interesting about you know how much the artistry is detached in reality or how the artist looks alike. Yes, uh, you might have an opinion, wow, this gentleman is it's the brand.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

How the bigger totally detached for everything else from the from the actual craftsman, yes, absolutely, and but this so there, is this luxury then?

SPEAKER_05 52:44

I mean the fact that they're hiding in the background because the queen did because they want to this is interesting because uh you're entering into the concept of pricing. Because uh, how can I justify the price of my item to be uh, I don't know, three times more than the cost of production, versus they can be 1,000 times more the cost of production. Because if you take any average, I'll say watch because I know more about watch than jewels, um, the cost of production is pretty known. You can range between, I was just speaking, production line, $1,500 till uh three, four, or five thousand dollars for piece. For masterpiece, you can reach above that. But then the same piece they cost $1,500. There are certain brands they declare, which is the cost, and they declare, okay, we'll apply four times the price of production. Okay, there are some brands that are doing that. They like to have uh this kind of transparency with the with the customer. Then there are other brands that say, okay, let's do like this. This is $1,500, let's put it on sale on $15,000. And with this cost of $15,000, you're thinking, okay, I'm overpaying for the product. But at the same time, you're paying for the marketing that they need to do. You're paid to have uh economical power to do research and development to do. So there is a kind of meaning why it costs much more than the three or four times the price of production rule, whoever invented this rule, because they need to do certain things like the sales advisor, the boutique looks alike, the marketing, uh, the experience. You know, they invite you over, the boutique they let you try, they invite you over for a dinner out. So all these things have a cost. Plus, you have the cost of uh the fee that they will be uh, let's say given to each sales advisor. And so you understand that the machine absorbs so much money to grow. So when the brand is small, you can apply an easy mathematical rule, but as more big it becomes, as more economical power he needs, and also as more the actual margin shrink. This is like uh you know, like in the with empires back in the days, more become bigger and the cost they got they're not proportional.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Correct.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

There is a sweet spot once you grow bigger than that, exactly the margin goes down. So this is apply, I think, to any type of uh of uh let's say uh big brand.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

Okay, but when you are a small brand and you work like uh through referral, that's a different story. So I believe uh it is tricky to identify which is the value, economical value of something if you look for the intrinsic value only. But the point is which is the willpower that you have to to buy. For example, you you check a jewel, okay. I like this jewel and I value this jewel at this amount, because my knowledge makes me believe this is this is the the value they give to this jewel, is totally detached by the price, the actual price of the item. I can value 10 times more, I can value half of the price of production. Depends is very subjective, I believe. Indeed. And this happened also in my practice when they're coming for doing services, aesthetic service, which is the value that they perceive is supposed to cost the thing. And who imprinted them? Because it's an imprinting also, who imprinted them through cultural certain information that they reach those people uh to value the things in a way and the other.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

Correct.

SPEAKER_05 56:04

So why the GMT, uh, Rolex, whatever, it is more worth it now that it's out of production before well before the day before of the uh when it's still in production was worth it off. Why? It's an iconic piece. No, it's not. Everybody has it. Who says that and who create this kind of trend to make it perceived like that? So, like you said, the marketing behind marketing. That's beautiful if you're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

It is a beautiful phenomenon.